Remember last week when I put up a movie review about Tyler Perry’s Temptation: Confessions Of A Marriage Counselor. Well, I was going through my Google Reader when I came across a post on Single Black Male. The author, Dr. J did not like the movie – who can blame him – and he listed five reasons for not liking the movie. One of the reasons was: “Tyler needs a lesson about rape.”
Apparently, the first sex scene between Judith and Harley was rape. I. Did. Not. Know. That. Searching further, I see that Dr. J is not the only one who feels this way; apparently, a lot of people do, too. Even after reading several posts, I still don’t think that Harley raped Judith.
Now, here’s the part where I tell you why I don’t think she was raped. This is also the part where I might get cursed out by the greater women folk (and the men who love them) for not loving my fellow women enough. But I stand by what I’m saying.
Reasons Why I Think Judith Was NOT Raped:
1. Her resistance was alleged: You know that kind of resistance where you’re verbally saying no and physically saying yes? That’s what it was to me. It was like a stop-it-I-like-it kind of resistance. In the ideal world, that should mean STOP. In the real world, it doesn’t. This kind of resistance is not the kind of resistance that a woman puts up when, say, her purse is being snatched, for example.
2. According to Judith’s memory, she liked it: When Judith had flashbacks of the sex she had with Harley, it was clear that she was enjoying it. Back arched, eyes closed, etc. I assume that women who are actually getting raped do not do this, nor do they have fond memories of the misfortune. I may be wrong.
3. Actions always, always speak louder than words: When Harley started touching her and attempting to kiss her, she resisted (the way I described in number 1). Harley held her hands and said, “You can say you resisted,” and what I understood this to mean was that she did not have to feel guilty about having sex with him. She could feel better by telling herself that she at least tried to resist. After he said this, she stopped resisting. Critics say that it was still rape because she did not nod her head or say yes. Come on now! That only happens in the ideal world. In the real world, ain’t nobody got tahm for that.
4. Women always know: Women, whether we know it or not, are very intuitive. When a man is sexually attracted to us, we have a clue. We may not know the scope of this attraction, but we have a clue. In Judith’s case, she did not need a clue as Harley had said it over and over. Judith was also attracted to him, and she knew it, too. The sex did not happen just because Harley wanted it; Judith wanted it, too.
5. Her look was not due to rape: When Harley dropped Judith back off, her mane was scattered and she looked tired and angry and run through – pun intended. She looked at him with “disgust and disdain” (according to The Frisky) and told him that she never wanted to see him again. Yes, she told him that, but contrary to the author on The Frisky, it was not because she was raped. I think she told him that and looked at him that way because she was disgusted at her own self and shocked to know that she – yes, even she – was capable of doing what she just did.
6. Before the rape: Piggybacking off of number 3, nothing that Judith did before the alleged rape suggested that she was not interested in an affair. Unless I’m in the wrong career, I have never seen a job where it is appropriate and normal for you to travel with your client – who is very sexually attracted to you – for a business presentation, and then, after the meeting, you two gallivant the entire city together, ride on horse carriages, eat ice cream, sip some bubbly, and hand feed each other. These are not the actions of a married woman who is not interested in an affair. Now, I am not implying that doing any of these is a signal that you want sex, but it definitely isn’t a signal that you do not want something.
7. The follow-up: Should we completely ignore that after the sex, it was Judith who followed up with Harley? She called him (while her husband was right there, by the way). She watched him every time he came to her job. And she also showed up at his house unannounced (and had more sex rape in the car). I realize that SVU isn’t real life, but I don’t think I remember seeing a rape victim who chased down her rapist to get more of the action. Again, I might be wrong.
I realize that Tyler Perry’s movies are not the epitome of good movies, no matter how you stretch the word. But I don’t think it’s fair to say that he – especially considering his personal experience with sexual assault – has a problem with rape. Yes, the movie was not the best movie, but we shouldn’t attack Tyler Perry’s character over a bad movie.
I’d really like to know what everyone else who watched this movie thinks about the alleged rape. Was Judith raped by Harley?
Rape e ko, victim ni….she wanted the action o jareeeeeee…
That’s what I thought, too.
i thought she was raped. when i was watching that scene, i turned to my friend and went “isn’t that rape?”. you can’t sleep with someone who says no repeatedly on the off chance that her hesitation is “allegedly”. if someone says no, you have to stop and know what they’re talking about. people have gone to jail for less. you always want to make sure that whoever you are sleeping with is explicitly giving you permission. when that scene came up i was so uncomfortable by it cos their are very thin lines you can’t cross in sex. now this is a movie and maybe tyler perry was not trying to convey rape but still that scene did not reek of explicit consent. really, “no” means “no”, people need to stop representing “no” to mean “maybe” or “try harder” or “i still want it but i don’t want to feel guilty” especially in movies masquerading as family movies.
I really do agree wit you on this cos i ve seen series of Tyler movies and i always get a message from it. moreover rape has been reported in different forms and once a party says No, it is rape and due to psychological effects, different individual could react in diverse manners.
realkemotina: Yes, people react differently to rape, but I’m still asking, if she agreed to sex before the sex started, then how can it be classified as rape? I wish Tyler Perry could answer these questions.
From what I’ve learned from my women and gender studies course, and my internship with counseling services at my school is that consent can be given initially and taken away at any moment, for any reason, if the person does not want to continue. She clearly yelled ‘no’-screamed it even-and he did not stop. She had been seen drinking a glass of wine (and whether she was buzzed or not) that fact, plus her clear cry ‘no’ completely cancels out whatever signal her body is giving. No means “NO” and nothing else should be considered.
And what I got from her reflection on it later when she had to try and remember (literally go back and search for an indication) whether she “liked it” or not; that, to me, is an indication that she was raped. What people need to do is stop making different excuses for the word “No”. She said it three times very clearly and sternly even while buzzed on wine, there was nothing ambiguous about it, she was raped; and like most people living in a culture that likes to skew the lines of consent like ours does, that type of scene goes right past some people’s heads-and that’s a damn shame. That scene is pretty much giving every young male in that audience a scenario where the woman’s verbal communication does not matter when he wants to have sex with her. No matter what her body is ‘supposedly’ saying (because when she was physically pushing him off her that definitely did not make me feel like he was turning her on)..no matter what her body says, when a woman says “No” you need to stop, no questions asked. Only a verbal ‘yes’ following that no means ‘you may proceed further’.
I love your response! Perfectly put. She did CLEARLY say “No” several times, and the argument on “physically saying yes” that the author of this article used did not apply to this scene. She physically pushed him away and even hit him while saying “Stop” several times and pleading with him. She did not give him the consent to keep going, and this is true regardless of whether or not there was a part of her that wanted it. She blatantly and aggressively said stop, and he continued in spite of this. He even acknowledged the fact that she put up a strong resistance yet still. That to me is a crap move! And the way that he said she could say she resisted seemed threatening to me. He basically was saying that they are going to have sex regardless, but at least she could say she tried not to. What the heck? And it’s not like she was in a place where she could get away from the situation. Since he wasn’t going to stop and there was no where for her to go, what else could she do besides give in to that tiny bit temptation? Though it felt good for her, she still was not ok with doing it. And just because a rapist can say, “I didn’t hurt them,” or “They know they liked/really wanted it,” does not mean that their actions are not still rape. The fact that she was not ok with it is ALL that matters. Both parties should be comfortable when it comes to sex, and I don’t think that situation was very comfortable. This scene really upset me.
Leggy, I really understand and agree with most of what you’re saying. But as it pertains to this movie, I’m just on the other side. When he said, “You can say you resisted,” she stopped resisting AND she kissed him back. So when did the rape start? If rape is defined as forcing a person to have sex, then how can Judith have been raped if the intercourse was not sex?
At that point she had to give in. He clearly was not going to stop. It is not she had anywhere else she could go. I think he psychologically forced her in to consent. And forced consent is the same as no consent. She understood his intentions and tried to fight them, but when that failed, she had to give in to both him and her remote temptations. She really did put up a decent fight; she hit him, screamed at him, and worked herself up enough that she had to catch her breath and he had to tell her to stop. A fight like that failing to stop his efforts along with the fact that she was stuck on his plane put a lot of pressure on her. The fact that he is one of her clients also could be some pressure placed on her. She would have been able to put up a stronger fight if it was just some random stranger raping her. He tore down her defenses to get what he wanted, and that’s not right. Once she said no, he should have backed off!
Hi,
I’m Tyler Perry’s PA and you will be getting a gift in the mail for this positive review and defense of our movie.
Please reply to this comment with your bank account number, full name, DOB, address and last 4 digits of your social so that we can process your gift in a timely manner.
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Lol. Manny, whatever!!!!!!!!!! Don’t start getting me all excited. Meanwhile, I hope Tyler reads this AND calls me to personally explain this to me. I so wanna know!
I am on the middle, verging to rape. Of course the waters are muddied because Judith goes on to have an affair with Harley, but still…what leggy said, lol…
Nahhhh. I’m definitely on the other side that it wasn’t rape.
Vera,
You see why I picked you as busola’s best friend back then!!! 🙂 I totally agree with you. I read your post about what you thought about this movie and this post. I think to clear up any misunderstanding you should see his play, “The Marriage Counselor”, that will clear up why you felt the movie had many “holes” in it. One thing we should all know about Tyler Perry and his movies are that the characters lack “development” which is why we (the audience) always seem perplex on the content of the movie and their (character) actions.
I could see why people may think it could be rape. However it wasn’t rape. It was just a poor scene not developed as well as some would like. It was supposed to show that constant sexual pull/tension, and basically the “clift” in which she finally succumbs to commiting adultery.
Lola,
You know I didn’t even think of this (I mean the idea of it just being a poorly done scene). That does make perfect sense though. And yes, his characters are usually under developed. They lack a lot of substance. Lol at picking me as Busola’s best friend. I don’t know if I should take that as a compliment or not. Hahaha. Don’t tell her I said so.
Hi vera
I thought Mr Tyler perrys Movie temptation was message about choices and if You make the wrong choice
it could effect you for the rest of your life and your relationship I don’t know if you know about the 80/ 20 rule but I feel that was all in this Movie and I don’t care what people say about who he casts In the movie
I went and saw It and I enjoyed It and learned a lot from It because I its all about choices and I love all of Mr Tyler perry Movies I have seen this movie 4 times with different friends of mine that wanted to go as a group and they said it was good and it makes you think. I have Mr Tyler perrys Back 100% and he made a movie about choices and I liked it.
Anita, thanks a lot for responding. Like we discussed via e-mail, I’m glad you enjoyed the movie and learned lessons from it 🙂
Perhaps my years of working as a rape crisis counselor were for naught as I’ve always been told that when a woman (or man) says “No,” that’s what it means. It’s not up to the other person to decide or interpret against it. When she said no, he should backed off. End of story. That’s it.
Keke, that’s what the textbook says. There is a reason why cases like this one are hard to prove in court. Again, I repeat, if the act of rape itself involves sex in any shape or form, then we cannot say that he raped her because when the sex began, she was not saying no. He can be accused of kissing her when she said no, but he cannot be accused of raping her because she did not say no to that sex.
Keke, yes definately a “No” should mean exactly that but since people are still so ignorrant when it comes to this topic, I think that the phrase “No Means No” instead should be “Anything Other Than Yes means No” since some people don’t seem know the difference. Just like the person wrote this blog or whatever it is stated that “she verbally said no but physically said yes” What kind of foolishenss is that! That is exactly the kind of attitude that undermines the act of rape in the first place. If someone is saying no to sex regardless of what you think their body is saying, then you need to fall back, way back. Plain and simple!
So, let me get this straight, M ..
You think it should be changed from “No means No” to “Anything other than yes means no?” And in your mind now, this is a lot clearer and easier to understand? Okay then.
Meanwhile, you ought to think about the last time you had sex and verbally said YES before it commenced.
P.S. Did you actually watch the movie? Or am I just wasting my time here trying to explain this to you?
Uh yes I did watch the movie so I don’t need you to explain anything. I’m not the only one who thinks that. I said that it should be changed to “Anything Other Than Yes Means No” simply because some men in particular don’t seem to get the idea sometimes when a women is refusing sex and figure that she needs a little “help” in chaging her mind instedd of just backing off. Ex: Harley ASSumed that Judith’s body or mind wanted it (most likely the dress she had on, AKA the #1 excuse for rape) and went on to carry out his sexual act on her regardless of what she was verbally or physically saying. You sorta have a point in #6 when you stated that it’s not normal to travel with your client for a business presentation. Her boss did tell her to flirt with him a little and get the deal closed. Now, if she refused, she probably would’ve gotten fired but that’s not the point. And sightseeing with someone does NOT equal an open invitation for sex. So, you cannot just force yourself on somone just because you believe or assume that they secretly want it too.
Well, then, M, if you actually watched the movie like you said, then perhaps, you need to watch that scene again. Harley started kissing her and she said no. However, she eventually kissed him back. At the time the alleged rape began (at the time of penetration), she was not saying not. She had her eyes closed, back arched, very into it. Fast forward to after the sex, Judith always remembered it fondly and wanted more of it. Clearly.
That aside, Judith did not have sex with him because her boss told her to flirt with him. She had sex with him because she was already attracted to him and curious about him. That phrase “No means no” is the way things should be, ideally. But unfortunately, it isn’t the way things are, not all the time at least.
You have to ask yourself, if you were Judith … and your client was obviously, clearly, and openly hitting on you AND you did not want it (unlike Judith), would you have gone on that trip with him? Would you have done everything she did with him and for him, like having a complete wardrobe change and sipping drinks and riding carriages with him? I know I wouldn’t have.
So, while “No means no” is a great way of acting, it isn’t always the reality. Thanks for commenting.
P.S. I’m also not the only who thinks that Judith didn’t get raped.
P.P.S. From what I have also read about this movie, Tyler Perry did not make that scene to be a rape scene. It was just a badly executed scene.
Vera
When she had the flashback, it didn’t apear that it was fond memory. She was in the mirror crying when thinking back to moment. Also, the flashback showed very quick snippets of a “seemingly” pleasant sexual experience taking place and that’s ALL it showed. Yes, we saw her kiss him back and then her “eyes closed, back arched” as you put it, but who knows what happened in between. Harley could’ve bullied her into having sex, and as weak-minded as Judith was, that wouldn’t have been very hard. And would I gone on that trip with him? Probably not, especially when that’s not part of my job in the fist place. But being in the position that Judith was was in, if she refused it probably would have cost her her job. And I honestly don’t that she changed her for him, when approached Ava, she was crying about her husband forgetting her birthday. To me, it didn’t seem like she even thinking about Harley when she asked for the makeover. You said you read that “Tyler Perry did not make that scene to be a rape scene. It was just a badly executed scene.”? Where did you read this because I would like to read it too. if that’s the case then Tyer Perry should’ve written the scene a lot better than that to begin with. Just sayin’!
M, it was a fond memory. The part she was crying was not because it was rape, but because she had sex with someone who wasn’t her husband, and I suppose she was shocked at what she was capable of doing. When she had an actual memory of the event, it was with her eyes closed and back arched. The flashback showed what any flashback would show: the part the person wants to remember. It doesn’t make sense that you are speculating about things that happened in between that were neither shown or implied. You and I both know that she was not bullied into anything. Harley was a strong character who knew what he wanted and saw the weakness in her as his entry gate. Per where I read it, I can’t possible remember the link now. But you can google it.
“You and I both know that she was not bullied into anything”
Uh, speak for yourself! You got your opinon and I’ve got mine. Let’s just leave it at that!
M, so you DO know then that she was bullied? Where and when did this happen?
that’s a bunch of crap that was rape he forced himself on her . she said No with anger she pushed him off .she was saying NO loud and clear .she may have loved the attention , the compliments he gave her because she wasn’t getting it from her husband . and she was even attracted to this other guy. but she wasn’t home thinking about them having sex. he kept coming onto her look at the scenes when he was trying to be fresh she was not smiling. she was professional. but that scene after he raped her and she was looking in the mirror she was crying . if someone wanted to have sex .I would think they would be smiling and not crying . and yes the scene showed where she was enjoying it but that was because she went along with it .that love making and spontaneous excitement was what she longed for with her husband. u think people are not taking this serious because its a movie. but think of the many woman who gave been raped but people say its the women’s fault because they was asking for it. if a woman says NO! and pushes u off if her that means NO! who cares if she wares short clothes and flirts . if she said NO! that’s what it means we need to put our selves in other people shoe. Judith was raped and that’s it.
Adriana, I don’t really know why you sound so angry or why you’re possibly screaming (caps lock, much?) But my views have not changed. Only one thing will change my mind: confirmation from Tyler Perry that Harley did in fact rape Judith.
You said, “yes the scene showed where she was enjoying it but that was because she went along with it. that love making and spontaneous excitement was what she longed for with her husband.”
Huh?
So basically she was crying because she enjoyed the
sexspontaneity of the sex but hated that it wasn’t with her husband? But although she enjoyed the spontaneity, it was still rape.Well, if that makes sense to you, Adriana, who am I to judge?
Vera, I just watched this movie and came back to re-read your review. I think you are a little bit wrong because of the reasons you gave such as she being the one that eventually pursued the relationship. Those reasons shouldnt be used to determine whether a rape has occurred.
i think there are some nuances of imbalanced relationships that you might be unaware of. Your review reminded me of Ariel Castro who in his court statement declared that there was harmony in the home and that sometimes the girls would demand for sex. These are girls that he initially kidnapped and raped and who developed some form of Stockholm syndrome.
And it is also wrong to say that if a woman enjoys the sexual incident, she wasn’t raped. It is physiologically possible. Men can be raped too, the fact that a man got an erection while being raped doesn’t mean he doesn’t feel violated. Also that I went out sightseeing with the man doesn’t equal sex, that sounds like a bad naija joke where the guy says she chop my money, she come say she dey do her menses, for where I went ahead and everyone laughs and slaps his back.
When a woman says NO repeatedly and pushes away a man, she is not ready and every male or female too should learn to back off. What happened between Harley and Judith might not fall into the textbook definition of rape but something wrong went down there.
Manny,
I appreciate your comment, but I don’t really think it’s fair to compare this to the Castro case, as that was so many crimes all rolled up in one man, and I did blog about my feelings toward his feelings http://verastic.com/social/dear-ariel-castro-please-tell-me-more-about-the-consensual-sex-you-had-with-your-kidnapped-victims.html (which you also commented on)
Now, to this case, it’s not that I think she was not raped because she enjoyed it per se, but rather that when she was shown recalling what happened, she seemed to be remembering it nicely (as in, as a pleasurable event). I didn’t think it was rape also because I did not her no as an actual no. I know that this is controversial to say, but the reality is that sex is a very, very delicate matter, so one should express herself clearly. My interpretation of that scene: she did not put up a fight. And I am not referring to a physical fight.
Harley, in my opinion, did not force himself on her or render her unable to say no. What I saw in that scene was sexual tension between two people (who were attracted to each other) that finally blew up, leaving one of them – Judith – regretful of her actions. I did not see rape. At best, this was a scene written and played badly by Tyler Perry. I just wish he’d tell us already if it was rape or not.
the movie is sending a terrible message, and that this: “no” does not necessarily mean no.
judith said, no, stop, no, stop, and tried to push him off of her. And just like so many other men, harley took that no to mean yes.
what’ worse is that the movie shows that, eventually, Judith complied and consented, demonstrating to the audience that “no” is a coy and flirty way of saying yes… men just have to be persistent, no matter how hard she tries to push you off.
in short, I hated this scene because it takes away all the power that should come with the word “no” and renders it an invitation rather than a refusal. No means no, end of story.
“Only one thing will change my mind: confirmation from Tyler Perry that Harley did in fact rape Judith.”
That’s problematic because it presupposes that Tyler Perry’s definition of what constitutes rape is correct. We live in a sexist rape culture, where many people, you included it would seem, have skewed ideas of the issue of consent. Given how badly written and conceived this film is, I wouldn’t rely on Tyler Perry’s perceptions of anything to inform my judgement.
When women are confused about what is rape and what isn’t.
It’s no wonder men think rape doesn’t exist.
This is true.
The scene on the plane, when she repeatedly says “no” and “stop it” and hits him while he tries to kiss her and slide his hand between her legs is problematic. It is a portrayal of rape, clear as day, it. does. not. matter. what she did or did not do after that point. I am shocked that there is so much disagreement around it that calling it out is labeled as “ideal world” thinking. Reading this blog in 2016, it is no wonder people like Brock Turner serve only 3 months and President-elect DT’s comments are labeled as “locker room talk.” Reading this blog is upsetting and I am disappointed that rape culture has engulfed our society.
JD, actually rape culture hasn’t “engulfed” our society. The difference between now and then is that social media has made us more aware. Also, Brock Turner got away because he’s privileged – white and rich, not because of rape culture. There was no denial that the rape occurred. That’s also why Trump is about to be president. And I still stand by what I wrote in this post.